Saturday, September 28, 2024

The Knicks Bold and Risky Move



Let's be honest: the moment Isaiah Hartenstein departed for Oklahoma City, Leon Rose knew he had to fill that vacancy. Even healthy, Mitchell Robinson is, at best, an adequate center. His excellent defense notwithstanding, nothing about his game would put the fear of God into an opponent. And in a conference that boasts the likes of Joel Embiid, Kristaps Porziņģis and Giannis Antetokounmpo, the Knicks needed to improve their front court if they were going to go from playoff team to title contender.

With Danny Ainge unwilling to trade Lauri Markkanen without getting a king's ransom in return, Rose turned his gaze elsewhere. It's no secret that Karl-Anthony Towns had been on the Knicks radar for some time. Last summer, there were rumors of a straight up swap involving Julius Randle. But then the rumors died down and Rose elected to address other needs on the roster. The additions of OG Anunoby and Precious Achiuwa definitely improved the team, but the result was still the same: another disappointing second round exit. The acquisition of Mikal Bridges over the summer addressed the backcourt, but there was still a hole at center. Rose's next move had to be bold, and he didn't disappoint.

The final details are still being worked out, but the principal players involved are Randle and Donte DiVincenzo to the Minnesota Timberwolves for Towns. Minnesota also receives a first round pick via Detroit. Losing DiVencenzo hurts, especially after the way he played against the Philadelphia 76ers in last year's playoffs. But let's face it: once the Knicks got Bridges, DiVo became a bench player. And while Randle has been the heart and soul of this team since his arrival, Towns is the more complete player. With Robinson not expected to return until late December, who would you rather see at the 5: Randle or Towns?

The significance of this move cannot be overstated. Too many times last season, the Knicks were reliant on Brunson to carry the load. He was double and sometimes triple-teamed. Having Bridges at the 2 will distribute some of that load. But having a bonafide scoring center will make this team very hard to defend. Think about it: the Knicks now have three players capable of putting up 25 plus points per game. Over the last two years, Rose has transformed this franchise into a legitimate contender.

Look, are there risks involved in making this trade? Of course there are. As in any team sport, chemistry is essential. Both Randle and DiVincenzo were well respected in the locker room; they will be missed. Towns will have to earn the respect of his teammates, as well as the trust of his coach. The fact that he once played for Tom Thibodeau should help with his transition into the lineup.

Then there's Towns' history of injuries. He missed 20 games last season and only played in 29 the season before. The Knicks are hoping he can return to the form he showed in 2021-22, where he appeared in 74 games, averaged 53 percent from the field, scored 24.6 points per game and was named All NBA 3rd Team.

And, finally, there's the money. With this trade, the Knicks payroll goes up to $188.5 million, just $400k shy of the second apron, which is the absolute max a team can be at under the CBA without incurring penalties. So if anybody gets hurt, Rose will have to get creative to find a replacement.

But all that aside, this a great day for Knicks fans. This is a roster that can go toe to toe with the elite teams in the NBA. They not only can give the reigning champ Boston Celtics a run for their money, as of now, you'd have to consider them the favorites in a best of seven series.

Until Robinson returns, the Knicks starting lineup will probably look like this: Brunson, Bridges, OG, Hart and KAT. If you're wondering why Hart would play the 4, it's because he did so on numerous occasions last season when Randle was out. As is typical with Thibs, it'll be a short bench.

Opening night is October 22 at Boston. Circle it on your calendar.


Thursday, September 19, 2024

For the Mets It's Déjà Vu All Over Again



The New York Mets embark on what will be the most crucial part of their season over the next ten games, which coincidentally happens to be their last ten games of the regular season when they begin a four-game series with the Philadelphia Phillies at CifiField Thursday night. Whether there's a postseason, however, remains to be seen.

The Mets - 84-68 - are tied with the Arizona Diamondbacks for the second Wild Card in the National League, two games ahead of the Atlanta Braves. They have control of their own destiny. If that sounds familiar, it should. Two years ago, almost to the day in fact, the Mets found themselves in the exact same position. They were two games up on the Braves for first place in the NL East, needing to win just one of three games in Atlanta to wrap up the division. But the Braves swept the Amazins and they were forced to settle for the first Wild Card spot. They then went on to lose to the San Diego Padres in the Wild Card round.

The experience left a bitter taste in their mouths. They knew to a man they were the better team, but the Braves were better when it counted: down the stretch; the Mets folded like a bad poker hand.

Well, here we are two years later. Once again the Mets have their fate in their own hands. Four games against the Phillies, three against the Braves, and three against the Milwaukee Brewers. For what it's worth, this is a much better team than the one that collapsed late in the 2022 season. Both their starting pitching and bullpen (yes, THIS bullpen) are deep, and they are among the best scoring teams in the league. Since June 1, the Mets are 60-35, the best record in the majors. The Houston Astros are next at 57-37. If this team were to make it into the postseason, they would be very difficult to beat.

But that's the catch: they have to get in first. It won't be easy. The Phillies are battling the Los Angeles Dodgers for the overall best record in the National League, which would earn them a bye in the first round. As for the Braves, well, let's just say that the Mets don't have a good track record against them. The last time they bested them in a meaningful series was 1969. They will be battling a lot of past demons when they play them next week in Atlanta.

Regardless of how these next ten games go, David Stearns deserves a lot of credit for not panicking at the trade deadline. The moves he did make made sense and helped solidify the team. By not mortgaging the future, like his predecessor did, he held onto his young players. One of them, Luisangel Acuna, was called up to replace the injured Francisco Lindor. To say he's hit the ground running would be an understatement. He's hitting .467 with 2 HRS, 4RBIs and an OPS of 1.400 in just five games. 

Acuna was the gem the Mets got in the Max Scherzer deal. While Scherzer has been injured most of this season, Acuna had an impressive season at Triple A Syracuse. This kid is going to be a star. Can you see him playing alongside Lindor in the Mets infield? How many owners do you suppose would be willing to eat $88 million just to restock their prospect pool? Steve Cohen also deserves a lot of credit for this turnaround.

For now, though, the Mets future is now. Luis Severino goes up against Taijuan Walker of the Phillies. Severino has been the Mets most consistent pitcher all season long, while Walker - an ex-Met - has struggled. It is vital the Amazins get off to a good start against this Phillies team. A week ago, they dropped two of three in Philadelphia. They would like to exact some payback.

They can start tonight. 




Thursday, September 5, 2024

2024 Giants and NFL Preview



It was only a year ago that the New York Giants, fresh off an improbable 9-7-1 2022 season, were thought of as genuine playoff contenders. Like so many of the Big-Blue faithful, I not only drank the Kool-Aid, I was dispensing it to as many people as possible. A record of 10-7 was more than reasonable given their schedule, I wrote.

Boy, how wrong was I? A humiliating opening night loss to the Dallas Cowboys set the tone for what became a train wreck of a season. Saquon Barkley and Daniel Jones both went down with injuries; the offensive line, which had shown much improvement the previous year, reverted to its Swiss cheese form; Brian Daboll quarreled with his coaching staff and at times looked more like John McVay than the offensive guru who turned Josh Allen into a star. There was some discussion that John Mara was so displeased by what he saw that he considered firing Daboll after the season. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.

Who could've figured that a season in which every conceivable break went their way was not a very good barometer for predicting future success. Turns out, 2022 was just a mirage; nothing more, nothing less. The painful fact is that this team is far closer to the bottom of the standings than the top.

Ok, lesson learned. Now what?

Well, for starters, I don't expect Big Blue to be any worse this season than last. In fact, if Jones can stay healthy - a big if - they might surprise a few people, especially if first round pick Malik Nabers turns out to be the stud everyone thinks he is. But can Jones get him the ball? That's the question. The bigger question, however, is will this team struggle to score points without Barkley in the backfield?

The offseason addition of OLB Brian Burns should solidify a front seven that, on paper at least, is actually pretty good. The secondary, however, remains a huge question mark, as does the offensive line. With respect to the latter, it seems we've been saying that a lot since 2017.

Then there's the schedule. The Giants host the Minnesota Vikings week one, then travel to Washington to play the Commanders. Both games are winnable. After that, however, the schedule gets considerably tougher for the G-Men. The Browns in Cleveland, the Cowboys at home, the Seahawks in Seattle, then the Cincinnati Bengals and Philadelphia Eagles at MetLife, before going to Pittsburgh to play the Steelers. A record of 3-5 would be quite an accomplishment for this group. Thankfully, in the second half, they play the Carolina Panthers on the road, and the Commanders and Indianapolis Colts at home. They should go 3-0.

Last year, the incurable optimist in me got the better of my judgment. This time around, I'm going into the season with both eyes wide open and understandably skeptical. As the saying goes, once bitten, twice shy.

Prediction: 7-10 (Third in the NFC East). Not great, but hardly decrepit. In fact, all things considered, very realistic.

Below are my predictions for the 2024 NFL standings and postseason.

NFC East:
Eagles
Cowboys
Giants
Commanders

NFC North:
Packers *
Lions
Bears
Vikings

NFC South:
Falcons
Buccaneers
Saints
Panthers 

NFC West:
49ers
Rams
Seahawks
Cardinals

AFC East:
Bills
Dolphins
Jets
Patriots

AFC North:
Bengals
Ravens
Browns
Steelers

AFC South:
Texans
Jaguars
Titans
Colts

AFC West:
Chiefs *
Chargers
Broncos
Raiders

* Number one seed

NFC Wild Cards:
Cowboys
Rams
Lions

AFC Wild Cards:
Dolphins
Ravens
Chargers

Conference championships:

NFC: Packers over the 49ers

AFC: Chiefs over the Texans

Super Bowl:

Chiefs over the Packers




Friday, August 30, 2024

It's Time for Alonso to Put Up or Shut Up



After getting off to a 4-3 start on this road trip, that would've been 6-1 had the bullpen not blown two saves, the New York Mets find themselves three games behind the Atlanta Braves for the third and final wild card spot in the National League. They're in Chicago to play three games against the White Sox before returning home to CitiField to play three against the Boston Red Sox and three against the Cincinnati Reds. Having dropped two out of three to the Oakland A's in their last home stand, the Amazins cannot afford to take the Chi-Sox lightly. Anything other than a sweep would be unconscionable. Suffice to say, the season is hanging in the balance.

Also hanging in the balance is Pete Alonso's career with the Mets. The slugging first baseman is a free agent after the season and his agent, Scott Boras, is said to be looking to ink him to a multi-year contract in the neighborhood of $300 million. But whether Steve Cohen believes Alonso is worth that much, especially with Juan Soto expected to hit free agency, remains to be seen.

To be sure, Alonso is the best home run hitter the franchise has produced since David Wright - whose career was cut short by spinal stenosis. Letting him walk would be a tough decision. But overpaying him would be a mistake. The fact is that since his rookie season in 2019, in which he led the majors with 53 homers, he has failed to live up to his enormous potential. While he is still a potent home run threat every time he steps up to the plate, he is still vulnerable to the high fast ball and curve ball low and away. In 2023, he batted a career low .217. Yesterday, he hit just his 29th home run of the season, which would put him on pace for 35 for the year. For a man with that much power, that is a woefully low number. By comparison, Soto already has 37 and is hitting 40 points higher with a 1.012 OPS. Who would you rather have in your lineup, Alonso or Soto?

Granted, Soto will command considerably more money. But he's four years younger than Alonso and is a better all-around player. He's also represented by Boras, so figure the bidding will start at $500 million over 10 years and could go as high as $600 million over 10. Given that Cohen was all in on Shohei Ohtani before he signed with the LA Dodgers, I can't imagine he'd pass up a shot at landing arguably the second best outfielder in baseball. The first just happens to be Aaron Judge, who compared to what Soto will command this offseason, is the steal of the century at $360 million over 9 years.

But all that could change if Alonso were to have a great September. He is certainly capable of going on a hot streak. If he were to hit 11 more home runs, he'd finish with his third consecutive 40 plus HR season. That would increase his markability, but it would also give Cohen an excuse to pass on Soto and re-signing Alonso, especially if Boras overplays his hand, like he did with Jordan Montgomery.

It's all on Alonso. He is in control of his own destiny. I'm sure Cohen, if given a choice, would prefer to re-sign one of his own over a much more expensive import. And for his part, Alonso has expressed a desire to retire as a Met. But Cohen is, first and foremost, a businessman; a very successful businessman. If he feels the better investment over the long haul is Soto, Pete's days in Queens are numbered.

There are 28 games left in the regular season for the Mets. Time for the Polar Bear to put up or shut up.



Wednesday, July 31, 2024

Stearns Did the Right Thing At the Deadline



There were no blockbuster moves for the New York Mets at this year's trade deadline. No, "Oh that's the final piece we needed to put us over the top" pronouncements from the Twitterverse. The fact is there wasn't one player David Stearns acquired that would be described as a needle mover. 

And yet, when you look at the totality of what Stearns accomplished, it was actually quite impressive. Without surrendering a single top 20 prospect in his system, he acquired a proven bat in Jesse Winker, a serviceable starter in Paul Blackburn, and badly needed bullpen help in the form of Phil Maton, Ryne Stanek, Huascar Brazoban and Tyler Zuber. Stanek was a member of the 2022 World Series champion Houston Astros but has struggled of late; Maton and Brazoban had not allowed a run in their last 5 appearances prior to their trade; while Zuber has bounced around and is looking for a home.

Overall, I'd give Stearns a B+. Yes, I realize the Mets are in the middle of a playoff race. Currently, they're tied with the Arizona Diamondbacks for the third and final Wild Card spot. The Flushing Faithful have been very patient with Steve Cohen, but there's a limit to anyone's patience. For a franchise that hasn't won a title since 1986, you can hardly blame the fanbase for being frustrated at the seeming lack of urgency at the deadline.

But here's the thing that most people need to remember. With the exception of Tanner Scott, whom the San Diego Padres sacrificed a lot to get, I didn't see a single reliever on the market that would've magically transformed a bullpen that, sans Edwin Diaz and Jose Butto, has been very inconsistent, to say the least. Face it, every team in contention was looking for pitching. It was a sellers market. Stearns would've been a fool to allow himself to get extorted the way the Padres did.

If 2022 taught us anything, it's that even in baseball, there are no shortcuts. The Mets thought they could buy a World Series. It blew up in their face, and Cohen had to fork over a king's ransom to get Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer off his payroll. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. 

I said it before and I'll say it again, I like where this team is headed. They're exciting to watch. Winker will add depth to a lineup that has, with a few rare exceptions, been smacking the hell out of the ball. The additional arms hopefully will stabilizing a bullpen that could use all the help it can get.

But basically, to quote the Dramatics, whatcha see is whatcha get. The Mets were already a playoff contender before the trade deadline; and now they're a slightly better playoff contender. It comes down to the athletes in that dugout.

In the end, it always does.

Friday, July 26, 2024

OMG!



On June 2, the New York Mets record stood at 24-35. They were mired in fourth place in the National League East, with only the Miami Marlins keeping them from the cellar. The Flushing faithful were bracing themselves for yet another lost year. It was looking more and more like David Stearns was going to be a seller at the trade deadline.

Since then, they've gone 30-13 - including a home and home sweep of the Yankees - to improve their record to 54-48. And with last night's improbable win over the Atlanta Braves, they are only a half game out of second place in the East and are a half game up on the San Diego Padres for the second Wild Card. If you saw this coming six weeks ago, you're a better person than me. Frankly, I was already looking ahead to football season. 

So how did the Amazin's turn their season around? Ironically enough, with the one thing most people didn't think they had enough of going into 2024: their bats. In the months of June and July, the Mets lead the major leagues with 256 runs scored in 45 games for an average of 5.7 runs per game. The Minnesota Twins are second with 235 runs in 44 games for an average of 5.3 runs per game. How significant is that? Over the last twenty years, the closest the Mets have come to leading the league in scoring was 2006 and 2022 when they finished 7th with 834 runs and 5th with 772 runs respectively. And those teams are generally considered to be the best offensive teams since that '86 World Series team that finished 6th with 783 runs.

For a franchise known for its elite pitching, being such a prolific hitting team has been the story of the summer. And to think, they're doing it with Pete Alonso having a sub-par year. In 102 games, the polar bear has hit only 20 home runs. He's on track to hit 32. Not counting the pandemic year of 2020, Alonso has averaged 44 home runs per season. Pete is an unrestricted free agent after this year, so it would behoove him to kick it in gear if he expects Steve Cohen to give him the contract his agent Scott Boras is looking for.

The secret sauce for the Mets success at the plate this year has been their depth. Put succinctly, this is the most imposing lineup they've had in years. In addition to Francisco Linder, who unlike Alonso, is having one of his best seasons with a .259 BA, 22 HRs and 62 RBIs, there's Brandon Nimmo - .236 BA, 16 HRs and 63 RBIs - young studs like Mark Vientos - .284 / 13 / 35 in just 57 games - and Francisco Alvarez - .273 / 4 / 24 in 50 games, and OMG singing sensation Jose Iglesias - .366 / 3 / 17 in 37 games. Off-season additions Harrison Bader - .263 / 8 / 36 - and J.D. Martinez - .258 / 10 / 40 - have contributed to the hit parade, as well.

What's impressive about this Mets team is that with the exception of Jeff McNeil, who is starting to come around after an early-season slump, every hitter in the starting lineup has an OPS over .700. That means if you're a pitcher, there are no easy outs. No, "I'll walk this guy to get to the next one," mindset. Unlike the Yankees, who with Juan Soto and Aaron Judge, are about as top heavy as the SS Poseidon on New Year's Eve, the Mets spread the wealth around. Each game it seems as if there's a different hero. At the pace they're on, 90 plus wins is not out of the question.

But while their offense may be percolating, their pitching hasn't been anything to write home about. The Mets team ERA is 4.15, 20th overall in the majors. Closer Edwin Diaz, after a rough stretch, is finally starting to round into form. The loss of Drew Smith, who was supposed to be Diaz' set-up man, to season-ending surgery, has made an already thin bullpen that much thinner. The emergence of Jose Butto as a long-reliever has been a pleasant surprise, and the return of Kodai Sengai will bolster a starting rotation that has Luis Severino, Jose Quintana, Sean Manaea and David Peterson. But for this team to contend for the playoffs, Stearns will need to fortify his bullpen at the trade deadline. Adam Ottavino and Jake Diekman aren't the answers.

Do I like where this team is headed? In a word, yes. They're exciting to watch, and with the prospects they have lined up in the minors, the future looks very promising. A tweak here and there by the front office and the Mets may finally give their fans something to root for in October and November. 



Tuesday, July 2, 2024

Blame Drury for Trouba Nightmare


Here's what we know, so far. After a disappointing and bitter exit from the playoffs at the hands of the Florida Panthers, it was clear Chris Drury meant it when he said everything was on the table. His first move was to waive Barclay Goodrow. I remember saying at the time that I didn't think there was an appetite within the Rangers organization to move Jacob Trouba. Clearly, I was wrong.

The first hint that something might be brewing was when Drury asked Trouba's agent to submit a list of 15 teams Trouba would not want to be traded to. While it is standard operating procedure for a player to submit such a list when a contract switches from a NMC to a NTC, it is unusual for a GM to request it before it is due. And after the way Goodrow was waived, Trouba understandably was concerned he might be the next one out the door.

Then came the story by Larry Brooks in The New York Post, which had Trouba going to the Detroit Red Wings for an undisclosed return, presumably a couple of mid-level draft picks. Detroit would pick up $5.5 million of Trouba's cap hit, while the Rangers would retain $2.5 million. According to Brooks, the deal was done.

Everything seemed to be going smoothly. Drury was on the verge of ridding the organization of a contract that was an albatross around its neck, while Trouba was about to be reunited with his old buddy Andrew Copp. Don't you just love happy endings?

That's when the shit hit the fan. Late Sunday, news broke that Trouba was none too happy about leaving the Rangers. In fact, there was speculation that his agent might submit what is referred to as a strategic no trade list; that's a list of teams Trouba would accept a trade to but which likely don't have enough cap space to take on his contract. And how would his agent know which teams don't have enough cap space? The same way we all do: by going to Capfriendly and Puckpedia, that's how.

Going into Monday, it was pretty clear that the standoff between Drury and Trouba impacted the moves the Rangers were able to make. One prominent free agent after another came off the board. While I thought it was highly unlikely that, even with Trouba's contract off the books, there would be enough cap space to sign Jake Guentzel or Steven Stamkos, players like Jonathan Marchessault, Jake DeBrusk, Teuvo Tarevainen and Tyler Toffoli were all reasonable targets that were in Drury's wheelhouse, and yet every one of them signed elsewhere: Marchessault ($5.5m x 5) with the Nashville Predators; DeBrusk ($5.5m x 7) with the Vancouver Canucks; Tarevainen ($5.4m x 3) with the Chicago Blackhawks; and Toffoli ($6m x 4) with the San Jose Sharks.

So instead of landing someone who could've moved the needle, the Rangers wound up signing Sam Carrick ($1m x 3) and trading for Reilly Smith ($5m x 1). Drury was able to get the Pittsburgh Penguins to retain $1.25m of Smith's cap hit by tossing in a 2027 second-round pick to go along with a 2025 fifth rounder. Carrick, I assume, will replace Goodrow on the fourth line, while Smith will likely play on the same line with Mika Zibanejad and Chris Kreider, and hopefully be more productive than Jack Roslovic and Blake Wheeler were in their relatively short stints with the team. 

To say this situation was badly handled would be an understatement. Drury seems to have completely misread the room here. After the grief he got over how he handled the Goodrow waiver, he did a 180 by informing Trouba of his intentions to trade him before his contract officially switched over to a NTC. In other words, Drury was hoping he could get Trouba to agree to a trade before free agency began so he would know exactly how much he could spend.

But what he didn't know, and hadn't considered, was that the primary reason for Trouba's reluctance to leave New York had very little to do with him not wanting to play for the Red Wings; it had to do with him not wanting to leave his wife Kelly, who's in the final year of a three-year residency at a local Manhattan hospital. Out of fear of retribution to her, the media has not mentioned the name of the hospital.

Which leads me to my next point: Whatever your feelings about this matter, Trouba's wife should be off limits. She has done absolutely nothing wrong here. Going after her is reprehensible. There's no excuse for it. If you're looking for someone to blame, the lion's share should go to Drury. He is the President and GM of this franchise; a franchise which has won exactly one Stanley Cup since 1940. Thanks to his bungling, it is quite possible that Trouba won't be going anywhere this summer. That means the Rangers will have an $8 million defenseman on the third defensive pairing to start the season.

Holy clusterfuck, Batman!

This whole thing could've been avoided had Drury simply acted more decisively. For starters, he shouldn't have asked for Trouba's no trade list in advance. He should've waited until Monday, and if Detroit wasn't on it, he could've pulled the trigger on the trade.* If Detroit was on it, he could've called up his former assistant Mike Grier in San Jose and asked him if he could take on Trouba's contract. If the answer was yes, he could've just waived him like he did with Goodrow. Problem solved.

Obviously, Drury would've caught flack. But that's why he gets the big bucks: to make these types of calls. You think Julien BriseBois gives a shit about catching flack. The Tampa Bay Lightning GM deliberately lowballed Steven Stamkos with an insulting $3 million AAV offer, knowing it would be rejected, just so he could sign Jake Guentzel to a more lucrative $9 million AAV contract. He then held a press conference in which he lied to the media about how it all went down - with a straight face, no less.

Think about that. One of the greatest players ever to don a Lightning jersey and BriseBois literally drove him out of town without so much as batting an eye. That's about as cutthroat as it gets. If you want to know why the Lightning won back-to-back Stanley Cups, this is why. They have a GM who puts the interests of the team ahead of the players. Maybe you don't agree that Guentzel is a better player than Stamkos - and for the record, I don't. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that the man running the organization thought so, and he didn't let anything or anyone get in his way.

Drury needs to be that kind of man. He can sympathize with what Trouba and his wife are going through, but in the end his primary responsibility has to be to his employer and the fans, many of whom haven't seen a championship in their lifetime. The fact is Trouba signed a contract; a contract that went from a no move clause to a 15-team no trade clause on July 1. It's not up to him to "accept" a trade to a team that's not on that list; it's up to him to abide by the terms of the contract. Period.

It's not like Detroit is on the surface of the moon. It's a couple of hours away by plane. What happens when the Rangers go on a long road trip? Does he catch the red eye to Kennedy between games? He's a professional athlete; his GM needs to treat him like one.

For all the intangibles Jacob Trouba brings to the table - his leadership in the locker room, his physical play on the ice - he simply isn't worth the money he's making, or the cap space he's taking up. Chris Drury knows it; the fans know it; and I suspect even his teammates know it. Whether it happens this summer or next, his days as a New York Ranger are numbered.



* I am going on the assumption that the Brooks story is accurate and that there was a trade already in place between Drury and Steve Yzerman. It's quite possible that all that took place was a discussion of a trade. The fact is we don't really know what happened.